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>From: Onno Meyer <Onno.Meyer@arbi.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de>
>Subject: cherryhlist
>Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 10:30:02 +0200 (MET DST)

> I was surprised by this as well.  Tully was surely lying about this.  To 
> send an unarmed ship into unknown space while the Mazianni are still about 
> (are they Onno?) is inconceivable.  Tully was not known to tell the whole 
> truth always.
This is one of the many unanswered questions. The compact books can be
dated only with an accuracy of about 40 years, and the Mazianni were
around in the early part of this time. However, nobody knows when the
last one died/surrendered.

BTW, there is a small point that supports the "unarmed ship" claim.
The Ulysses was able to dock on a compact station. Unless compact docks
are highly adaptable (nonsense - that's what standards are made for) or
the two systems fit nearly (not really probable), the docking mechanism
of the Ulysses has to be highly adaptable, designed to dock with alien
stations. In my opinion, that could indicate that the Ulysses was designed
to make a first contact with aliens. In this case, an unarmed ship is 
possible (it would travel with carriers waiting wether it returns or not).

I believe that Tully simply lied about weapons, but this is another  

> Onno writes:
> >Of course I realize that the importance of the Han contradicts my
> >assumptions, but that could be an old-fashioned system that no
> >longer represents the real power distribution.
> I think that the han is a recent development, set up by the mahendo'sat.  
> There is a reference to this in TKSB somewhere near the end.  The concept 
> of the han does not really fit in with my idea of traditional old-fashioned 
> hani society.
I think we're talking about different "recent"s . My idea was: the han
was set up after the first contact, when Hani still uses bows and arrows,
but knew about the possibility of starships. The han is made up by the
"regular" clans, and immunes are officers of the han. Immune clans  
are set up to protect a vital ressource. When the hani industrialized,
more and more jobs became vital, and more and more clans should be 

I see two possible hani societies:
(1) In the lower classes, the clan structure looses importance. While
    everybody is still a member of a clan, these hani live like humans
    do: Single houses/flats as opposed to a clan compound, working
    for somebody they have to family ties to, etc.
(2) The society remains organized along clan lines. No industrial 
    venture can have more than a few hundred workers. As a result,
    a lot of the work is subcontracted to other clans, who will
    be subcontracting themselves.
    This will lead to incredibly complex business relationships
    among the clans, and the producer of screws (or screwdrivers)
    will be as important for all hani as the custodian of the
    river dams were some centuries ago. Thus, every monopoly
    or even market-controlling venture will have to become immune
    to prevent the disruption of the service. Do you remember what
    happened to the computer industry when the plant in Japan burned

Onno Meyer 

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