Men at age 17 in C.J. Cherryh's books

>From: Lesley Grant <lgrant@maths.tcd.ie>
>Subject: cherryhlist -- inauspicious ages of characters?
>Date: Mon, 29 Mar 93 14:01:39 BST

I was re-reading some of Cherryh's "Hell" books recently, and came across Julius Caesar musing that 17 was obviuosly an (in)auspicious age for his sons (Brutus has turned up, amnesiac and 17, Caesarion is 17-with-an-attiude). This got me thinking about other young men in Cherryh's books. 17 is a bad age for almost all of them: Vanye kills his brother and is exiled, Justin is raped, Grant is kidnapped and tortured. Are there others? I think Sandor is 17 when his cousin Ross is killed, for example. Is this a genuine pattern, or just coincidence? And if it is a pattern, why is 17 so awful for Cherryh's male characters?
Any thoughts?

			Lesley

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>Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1993 07:59:25 EST
>From: davis@licre.ludwig.edu.au
>Subject: RE: C. J. Cherryh List

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I think this would make a good question for the UseNet Oracle Lesley! But the short answer is: 17 is a disastrous age for all males, fictional or not.

Ian Davis                                       davis@licre.ludwig.edu.au

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>From: Jo Jaquinta <jaymin@maths.tcd.ie>
>Subject: Cherryhlist: subject line
>Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 9:32:00 BST

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I'm afraid I can't remember my 17th year. I was in pupa stage.

					Jo Grant
					jaymin@salmon.maths.tcd.ie

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>From: Lesley Grant <lgrant@maths.tcd.ie>
>Subject: cherryhlist
>Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 9:47:11 BST

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> >From: Jo Jaquinta <jaymin@maths.tcd.ie>
> 	I'm afraid I can't remember my 17th year. I was in pupa stage.

I'm tempted to say something here, but perhaps I should stick to Cherryhish topics...:-)

				Lesley

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>From: nancy ott <ott@ansoft.com>
>Subject: Re: Cherryhlist
>Date: Thu, 1 Apr 93 9:40:57 EST

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Aren't Niun, Raen Meth-Maren and Altair Jones about 17, too? (Or the equivalent in mri years.) Plus Pyotr and Sascha from the Russian fantasies. Seems like 17 is a popular age to have disastrous problems (or, as a friend who's a social worker at a halfway house put it, "issues to address") -- regardless of sex or species.

nancy ott (...)

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>From: Jo Jaquinta <jaymin@maths.tcd.ie>
>Subject: CherryhList: Sweet 17
>Date: Fri, 2 Apr 93 8:47:36 BST

> Seems like 17 is a popular age to have disastrous problems
> (or, as a friend who's a social worker at a halfway house put it,
> "issues to address") -- regardless of sex or species.

Actually, I've thought of a much more likely, yet mundane, reason for it. Most of Cherryh's readers are probably 17. As has already been evidenced, 17 is a time of "issues to address". It is probably easy for 17 year olds to empathise with a fictional 17 year old having problems much more magnified than their own.
Hmm. Does this mean we-who-love-Cherryh all think like 17 year olds? Or does it mean that we all have personal problems? :-)

Jo

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>From: Lesley Grant <lgrant@maths.tcd.ie>
>Subject: cherryhlist
>Date: Wed, 7 Apr 93 9:41:43 BST

> >From: Jo Jaquinta <jaymin@maths.tcd.ie>
> >Subject: CherryhList: Sweet 17
> 	Actually, I've thought of a much more likely, yet mundane,
> reason for it. Most of Cherryh's readers are probably 17 (...)

I really don't think that Cherryh's readership is mostly so young. In fact, I could see 17-yr-olds not liking her work much at all -- it's too introverted, the characters have too many problems, the men are too human, the women are too strong (a lot of posts on the net dislike Cherryh because the male characters just aren't macho enough for them. I've lost count of the men who've told me so in mail), the action (when it finally happens) is over too quickly.
It would also be pretty difficult for a young reader (with or without problems) to identify with many of Cherryh's young characters. Even the more conventionally 'attractive' have too many wierdnesses -- Vanye and Niun may at first appeal due to being parts of (different) warrior aristocracies, but Vanye is way too insecure, having had a terrible childhood, and Niun, perhaps the least reflective and most secure of Cherryh's young men no sooner realises his destiny and takes up active warrior-hood than he starts obeying every word his baby sister says. And as for the others -- how would a 17 year old like to identify with someone like Sasha (so I've got magical power, great, but I can't dare to use it), Paul Dekker (What time is it?), Hallan Meras (especially the solution that Hilfy comes up with :-), any of the young azi (Florian, Quentin, Grant, Jim, Jin, etc), Justin Warrick (20 years later, he's still 17)?
Well, that's male readers. Female readers have a wealth of characters to identify with, but most are older than 17. In general, though I think most readers are going to be older, and perhaps looking on the luckless 17 year old characters with the experience of having got past 17 themselves :-)

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				Lesley