The technology levels of the different races/gouvernements

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>From: Jo Jaquinta <jaymin@maths.tcd.ie>
>Subject: Cherryhlist : Cherryh Physics
>Date: Tue, 4 May 93 12:50:03 BST

I got involved with a friend putting together an Elite like game. Of course I was looking at it from the point of view of a Cherryh-like universe. That led onto old ideas I had for doing Cherryh role playing game stuff and I've been playing with ideas for ship design.
For me, ship design comes first. We know from her writing how ships more or less work and get around. I need some system for seeing what parameters one can construct within to make conculsions about how interstellar economy works beyond what she has written.
The first thing I sat down to think about was the relative technilogical level of the various races. Here's what I've come with so far:
Earth 0
Union 2
Alliance 1
Hani 1
Mahendosat 2
Kif 2
T'ca/Chi 4
Knnn 6
Sstsho 3

Actually, it should probably be worked out per station...

Jo

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>Date: Tue, 4 May 93 15:48:26 +0200
>From: mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner)
>Subject: Re:  C. J. Cherryh List

> (...)
>	Earth		0
>	Union		2
>	Alliance	1

I'd have rated Earth at least equal with Alliance. In fact, I'd rate it equal with Union except for azi technology, which Earth does not have or use. Earth troubles are usually not caused by technological inferiority, but by political (psychological?) restrictions. They want control, not trade.

	Markus

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>From: nancy ott <ott@ansoft.com>
>Subject: Cherryhlist
>Date: Wed, 5 May 93 16:28:51 EDT

(...)

> >From: Jo Jaquinta 
> (...)
> 
>       Earth           0
>       Union           2
>       Alliance        1
>       Hani            1
>       Mahendosat      2
>       Kif             2
>       T'ca/Chi        4
>       Knnn            6
>       Sstsho          3

I'd rate Earth, Alliance and Union as:

Union: 2 (some stations/planets are 1)
Alliance: 1
Earth: 1 (can vary between 0 and 2)

Earth is much less homogeneous than Union or Alliance; however, I imagine that most of Earth and the Belt would be at a tech level of 1. Sol Station, Mars and parts of the wealthier nations would be closer in technology to Union. The less developed parts of earth would be very low tech indeed.

Earth and Alliance seem to be equivalent in spaceship technology, derived from Union's early advances in that area. Union also has the edge in areas like genetic engineering (such as azi), biochemistry (such as rejuv) and social engineering, so I'd give them the higher overall tech level. However, some parts of Union may not be as advanced. Like Earth, the tech level would vary depending on where you are located.

Earth and Union have the population and resources to engage in research and development on a scale that Alliance just can't match. Alliance also doesn't have much of an industrial base (at least initially). However, Earth is held back by political/psychological attitudes that Union and Alliance just don't have.

I'd give the Hani a zero instead of a 1. They didn't develop advanced technology on their own; they obtained it from the Mahendosat and haven't really advanced much from there.

- nancy
(...)

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>From: Lesley Grant <lgrant@maths.tcd.ie>
>Subject: cherryhlist
>Date: Thu, 6 May 93 9:48:00 BST

(...)

[on relative tech levels]

 
> I'd give the Hani a zero instead of a 1.  They didn't develop advanced
> technology on their own; they obtained it from the Mahendosat and
> haven't really advanced much from there.

I agree. The scenes of planet life are of nice country estates with few gadgets, motorised vehicles or phones. Guns, spaceships, stations, etc all are more advanced, presumably because they were bought directly from the Mahendo'sat.

				Lesley

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>From: Onno Meyer <Onno.Meyer@arbi.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de>
>Subject: Re: C. J. Cherryh List
>Date: Mon, 10 May 1993 18:31:04 +0200 (MET DST)

> > (...)
> >       Earth           0
> >       Union           2
> >       Alliance        1
> >       Hani            1
> >       Mahendosat      2
> >       Kif             2
> >       T'ca/Chi        4
> >       Knnn            6
> >       Sstsho          3

Is there any evidence to rate the T'ca lower than the Knnn? I've got the impression that they all are quite mysterious and little about their technology is known.

(...)

> (...)
> 
> Earth and Union have the population and resources to engage in
> research and development on a scale that Alliance just can't match.
> Alliance also doesn't have much of an industrial base (at least
> initially).  However, Earth is held back by political/psychological
  ^^^^^^^^^

What time do we discuss here? If we compare Alliance/Union and the Compact Space, we're talking about the postwar period, perhaps the 2360s.
In 2351, the Merchanters still had ties to the Union or the Earth, and would have had access to modern technology. Even without own research, it would take some time for their technology to become obsolete.

> I'd give the Hani a zero instead of a 1.  They didn't develop advanced
> technology on their own; they obtained it from the Mahendosat and
> haven't really advanced much from there.

I don't think the SOURCE of technology should be compared here. The question is wether they have the technology, and the Hani build their own spacecraft, no worse than the Kif, except that the Hani build merchanters and not dedicated warships.

(...)

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>Date: Thu, 13 May 1993 19:45:04 -0500
>From: "Phil G. Fraering" <pgf@srl.cacs.usl.edu>
>Subject: cherryhlist

I'd like to put in my $ .02 about the relative tech levels in the books:

1. It seems to me that other than the azi, Union isn't that far ahead, if it's ahead at all.

Keep in mind, Union, thanks to the azi, seem to have a lot more resources to play around with than Earth or the Alliance. The ECS fleet has been fighting for years, with no resources/resupply/ recruits except what they can steal/shanghai.

All through _DS_ Union seems to be saturating the fleet with numbers. _And_ there's one point where the fleet could have struck back and taken out a lot of Union ships, except for the messages from the company people calling off the attack.

2. It seems to take a lot more training to operate an ECS carrier smoothly than you could probably get from Azi (except for the really specialized ones, which you don't have that many of).

3. All sides seem to understand the physics of Jump drive equally well; remember that Union had tried cloning the inventor, but she never produced anything.

4. Noone mentions riderships on Union vessels. Multi-ship operations seem to be inherently harder than large single vessels. A comparison would be between the Enterprise (i.e. the aircraft carrier) and a modern destroyer. Sure the destroyer's newer, but from an operations standpoint the Enterprise represents something much harder to operate, and ultimately much more powerful.

This subthread is continied in Does Union use Carriers/Riders?

Phil

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>From: Onno Meyer <Onno.Meyer@arbi.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de>
>Subject: cherryhlist
>Date: Mon, 17 May 1993 16:17:19 +0200 (MET DST)

> (...)
> 
> 2. It seems to take a lot more training to operate an ECS carrier
> smoothly than you could probably get from Azi (except for the really
> specialized ones, which you don't have that many of).
> 
> (...)

p.171 ... They had one advantage over Union's sleek, new ships, the fine equipment, the unscarred young crews, tape-trained, deepthaught with all the answers. The Fleet had experience, could move their patched ships with a precision Union's fine equipment had not yet matched, with nerve Union conservativism and adherence to the book discouraged in it's captains. ...

I would say that (a) the Fleet crews are better and (b) they are taking risks no sane man would take. Union has won the war at the time of _DS_. Their captains will be reluctant to risk their crews and ships with crazy stunts that could kill them even before they engage the Fleet. The Fleet captains know they have lost the war (at least the top two know) and it doesn't really matter wether they die now or later.

Onno

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>From: Jo Jaquinta <jaymin@maths.tcd.ie>
>Subject: cherryhlist: Union Fleet & Tech
>Date: Tue, 18 May 93 8:54:48 BST

Phil argues:

>1. It seems to me that other than the azi, Union isn't that far
>ahead, if it's ahead at all.

I don't know. Most of the "new technology" who origins are given in the books seems to come from Union to Alliance to Earth. Earth is always protrayed as always taking without giving (except luxary goods). E.g. FTL, cloning, and re-juv.

(...)

Jo

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>Date: Mon, 17 May 93 11:25:04 +0200
>From: mst@vexpert.dbai.tuwien.ac.at (Markus Stumptner)
>Subject: Re:  C. J. Cherryh List

(...)

>From: "Phil G. Fraering" <pgf@srl.cacs.usl.edu>

>All through _DS_ Union seems to be saturating the fleet with numbers.
>_And_ there's one point where the fleet could have struck back and
>taken out a lot of Union ships, except for the messages from the
>company people calling off the attack.

I agree, _Downbelow Station_ makes it look as if the Fleet problem is not technology or capability, but supply and replacements.

(...) Still, the relationship "carrier <==> rider" seems to me pretty valid. Note that this still fits your argument - if the Union has riders, and possibly more of them, then the fact that they are still tactically inferior shows that they have neither the same crew quality *nor* the distinct technological edge which might make up for that lack of quality.

	Markus

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>From: Lesley Grant <lgrant@maths.tcd.ie>
>Subject: cherryhlist
>Date: Tue, 18 May 93 9:25:52 BST

> >From: "Phil G. Fraering" <pgf@srl.cacs.usl.edu>
 
> 1. It seems to me that other than the azi, Union isn't that far
> ahead, if it's ahead at all.

Tape -- new skills, almost instantly. Rejuv -- live to 150. This is being improved in _Cyteen_ (Justin and Grant get a new type which doesn't grey the hair or cause brittle bones). Terraforming -- Cyteen becoming a niceish place.

> 2. It seems to take a lot more training to operate an ECS carrier
> smoothly than you could probably get from Azi (except for the really
> specialized ones, which you don't have that many of).

From _Cyteen_ (and _DS_, _Serpent's Reach_, etc) it seems that azi make the *best* soldiers, agents, pilots, techs, etc. They can be trained pretty quickly on the theoretical side of things, and don't seem to have problems putting theory into practice instantly (tape-teaching seems to make one 'practised' at something, even if it's a new discipline). The military in Union also consistently bought the 'best' azi, the ones with most initiative and so forth.

 
> 3. All sides seem to understand the physics of Jump drive equally
> well; remember that Union had tried cloning the inventor, but she
> never produced anything.

But _Cyteen_ offers the possibility that they could succeed with Bok if they tried again. After all, it seems to have worked with Ari2.

 
(...)
			Lesley